Anguish In Oklahoma City
CN Interview With Tony F. Sgarlatti
CONSPIRACY NATION:  What is your background, expertise, regarding
the bombing in Oklahoma City?
TONY  SGARLATTI:   I've  produced  and  directed  over  400 cable
television productions, including a half hour  video  in  May  of
1995  entitled  "Anguish  in Oklahoma City", where I took some of
the raw footage from the first hours of the bombing on April 19th
up to the implosion on  May  23rd  and show people the version of
the bombing that was seen  by  an  unprepared  press.   I'm  also
involved  with  a  local  group which provides updates on various
happenings around the country  that  you  won't read about in the
major media.  At those meetings, they share  personal  experience
plus  published  material  from  sources  such  as  The McAlavany
Intelligence Advisor, Flash  Point,  Contact!, The Bob Livingston
Letter, Youth Action News, Media Bypass magazine, and others that
give you  the  scoop  on  major  events  that  you'll  never  see
elsewhere.   Being  in  the  cable television production business
I've also become acquainted with people who have investigated the
bombing first-hand and have reported their findings.  I'm also on
the Internet, both as a presence to describe  an  "Oklahoma  City
Fact  Pac"  I offer, and as an investigator subscribed to several
mail lists  which  get  various  bits  of  information  about the
CONSPIRACY NATION:   What  makes  your  ideas,  your information,
worth paying attention to?
TONY SGARLATTI:   I  consider  myself  a level-headed individual,
having spent over 16 years as  an  engineer,  so  I  think  in  a
logical  manner.   And, I'm a credible person having a managerial
position outside of my cable  production duties and have obtained
two masters degrees.
    I love my country, and am saddened by what I see happening --
how our country  is  turning  into  some  kind  of gestapo run by
jack-booted  thugs  supported   by   the   Anti-Terrorism   Bill,
Communications  Decency Act, anti-firearm provisions of House and
Senate bills -- and want to see this downward spiral reversed.
CONSPIRACY NATION:  How  involved  in  the  bombing  was  Timothy
McVeigh?  Was he just a patsy?  Is he totally innocent?
TONY SGARLATTI:  I think,  from  reports  I've heard, that he was
driving the truck  supposedly  containing  the  fertilizer  bomb.
There's  other  people  that say he wasn't even at the scene, but
miles away.
    His attorney, Stephen Jones, speaking at  the  University  of
Oklahoma  at  Norman  on  November 16, 1995 said:  "When you know
everything I do -- and you  will  --  you will never think of the
American government in  the  same  way  again."   What  does  his
attorney know that he is not talking about yet?
    What most of the American public doesn't know is that McVeigh
was  a hero in the Gulf War. His division did so well in that war
that they were assigned the duty of guarding the inside perimeter
of  a  captured  Iraqi   airstrip  when  Norman  Schwarzkopf  was
visiting.  After the war, McVeigh was in Fort Bragg where he  got
washed  out.   His  goal  was always to be in Special Forces, and
during  a  mysterious  counseling-testing  session  prior  to his
aborted attempt to  enter  the  Special  Forces,  his  associates
reported  that he seemed a bit different than he'd been before...
that he wasn't the same McVeigh.  McVeigh told friends that while
he was in the service, the Army had placed a computer chip in his
buttocks to keep track  of  him.   Reports of McVeigh's arrest, a
short  time  after   the   bombing,   indicated   a   zombie-like
personality,  who  demonstrated  little  of  the common sense and
brains described in his military  record.  After he was arrested,
one of the few things McVeigh spoke about was to  complain  about
the  continuing pain from his implant.  He may have been involved
in some type  of  psy-op  mind  control  programming.  His sister
reportedly has a letter from him that says he  was  a  government
agent.   It's  not  known  if  he was washed out of Fort Bragg on
purpose, or became disgruntled, but  then became recruited by the
neo-Nazis.  He was a patsy and had some knowledge of the bomb  --
but  not knowing the full impact of the explosion or if the truck
was meant to  explode  at  all.   For  all  we  know, he may have
believed he was only making a delivery.  I believe  that  McVeigh
was  told  that  he  was  doing a job for the greater good of the
American people, and not to  worry  how  it turns out because the
government will take care of him even if it gets to the point  of
execution;  that  they  will find a way to rescue him, give him a
new identity and have him  live  like  a king in South America or
CONSPIRACY NATION:  Will McVeigh get a fair and open  trial?   Or
will  the  trial  be  more  or  less  secret,  as with the Branch
Davidian trial?  (Their  trial  received  little media attention,
compared for example to the O.J. Simpson trial.)
TONY SGARLATTI:  I think given the attention  that  this  tragedy
has had, and the amount of suffering experienced by the survivors
and families of the victims, that the American public will demand
that  it  receives  more media attention than the Branch Davidian
trial.  At least that is my  hope.  The Branch Davidians, you may
recall, were totally demonized by the media.  The general  public
would have probably protested major media coverage of that trial.
It  may not receive the same amount of attention ahe O.J. Simpson
trial,  mainly  because  we're   talking  about  a  person  being
represented  by  a  public  defender,  not  by   million   dollar
highly-acclaimed defense attorneys.
CONSPIRACY  NATION:   How  can McVeigh possibly get a fair trial?
If he gets a fair trial, he  would be found "not guilty" -- after
all,  no  "fertilizer  bomb"  could  have  destroyed  the  Murrah
Building.  So they (the government, say) must have McVeigh  found
guilty.  Right?
TONY  SGARLATTI:   To  understand the "justice" system (and I put
justice in quotes, and use that term very loosely when describing
fairness), you have to  understand  how  the court process works.
Let's use the O.J. Simpson trial as an example.  The defense team
spent hundreds of thousands of  dollars  on  jury  selection  and
other experts to get as much of an edge on the trial as possible.
I  suspect  the  prosecution  is  already  doing much the same to
ensure they have the  upper  hand  before  the trial even starts.
Tim McVeigh and Terry  Nichols  will  not  have  access  to  such
expertise  and  so  will be at a disadvantage.  I think that if a
jury were to truly weigh the  facts  in the case, and the defense
team has done their homework, they would have to come up with the
fact that a Ryder truck carrying a fertilizer bomb did  not  blow
up  the  building, hence reasonable doubt would enter the picture
and an acquital is the logical result.
CONSPIRACY NATION:  Was this an explosion, an implosion, or what?
Doesn't the debris suggest an explosion from inside the building?
TONY SGARLATTI:  The most damaging  evidence is what was reported
over the local news and CNN [Cable News Network] the first day of
the bombing.  Here you had a bunch of  reporters  running  around
interviewing  victims  of the blast and people that were rescued,
who spoke to the news about what they observed had happened.  One
person in particular was on the fifth floor (and by the way, this
interview opens the video I  made, "Anguish in Oklahoma City")...
He says (and I quote), "I thought it was an earthquake because  I
resided  in  California for many years, and it was almost like it
was in slow motion.  I  felt  a  shake, and then it began shaking
more, and I dove under my desk and then the glass all came in  --
and  I  think  that's  what  saved  me."   If  it  were  just one
explosion, then how would victims have had the time to jump under
their desks  and  protect  themselves  from  falling  ceiling and
flying debris?  The waterworks building across the street is  two
stories  tall,  and there was debris found on top of the building
-- to suggest that debris came from the inside of  the  building,
as  does other debris found around the building facing toward the
street, not away from the truck.
    In mid-May of  1995,  retired  Brigadier  General  Benton  K.
Partin,  an explosives expert, wrote a letter to Oklahoma Senator
Donald Nickles stating that "the damage pattern on the reinforced
concrete superstructure  could  not  possibly  have been attained
from the  single  truck  bomb  without  supplementing  demolition
charges  at  some  of  the  reinforced  column  bases.  The total
incompatibility with a single  truck  bomb  lies in the fact that
either some  of  the  columns  collapsed  that  should  not  have
collapsed  or  some of the columns are still standing that should
have collapsed and did not."
    Let's assume for a moment  that  we have a Ryder truck filled
with 4800 pounds of ammonium nitrate ["fertilizer bomb"].  At the
point of detonation  this  would  yield  an  explosive  force  of
approximately  300,000 lbs./sq. in.  -- that's also assuming that
all of the barrels  ignite  and  explode simultaneously, which is
unlikely to be accomplished by amateur bomb builders.  As a  side
note, the ammonium and diesel fuel have to be mixed, and the trip
they made to the building would have unsettled the mixture and it
likely wouldn't have blown up at all.  Now -- an ammonium nitrate
bomb is a slow burning explosive that is meant to be used like in
mines, where it is tightly compacted and put down holes.  In open
air,  the pressure of the blast drops off inversely as a function
of the distance cubed.   In  other  words,  by the time the blast
reached the first column that fell, the pressure is already  down
from  300,000  lbs./sq.  in.  to  only  375 lbs./sq. in., and the
column in the second row which is  a part of the major blast area
only has a pressure of approximately 27 lbs./sq. in.
    Do you  happen  to  know  what  the  yield  strength  of  the
reinforced  concrete pillar is?  (The yield strength would be the
pressure that it would take  to collapse it.)  3,500 lbs./sq. in.
It's absurd  to  believe  that  one  of  these  large  reinforced
concrete columns would have been brought down by 25 to 35 lbs. of
pressure, or even 375 lbs. for that matter.
    There's  also  recent  news  on  the  Internet from Strategic
Investment, and they report
    A classified Pentagon study  determines  Oklahoma  bombing
    was  caused  by  more  than one bomb.  A classified report
    prepared by two independent Pentagon experts has concluded
    that the destruction of  the  federal building in Oklahoma
    City last April was caused by five  separate  bombs.   The
    two  experts  reached  the  same  conclusion  for the same
    technical reasons.  Sources  close  to  the Pentagon study
    say Timothy McVeigh did play a role  in  the  bombing  but
    peripherally,  as a "useful idiot."  The multiple bombings
    have a  Middle  Eastern  "signature,"  pointing  to either
    Iraqi or Syrian involvement.
                      -- Strategic Investment,  March 20, 1996
CONSPIRACY NATION:  You have said that the crater in front of the
Murrah Building is to the right of the major  blast  area.   What
makes you say that?  How has this been covered up?
TONY SGARLATTI:  Logic would lead one to conclude that the crater
from the explosion from outside the building would be directly in
front of the major blast area, which would be  the  third  column
from  the  left.   This  is  the only spot where two columns were
taken out and the  damage  was  so  severe  that  there is a hole
completely through  the  building.   In  his  letter  to  Senator
Nickles,  [Brigadier  General]  Ben  Partin  draws his sketch and
makes his conclusions  based  on  that  erroneous data.  He later
revised his drawing as shown in the August 7, 1995 issue  of  the
New American magazine, and correctly shows the bomb crater to the
right of the major blast area by over an entire column.
    If  you were to look at an early Associated Press photograph,
you will see  a  deceiving  angle  of  the  building, shot from a
helicopter, that shows the crater directly in front of the  major
blast area.  However, a birds eye view of the building or a front
shot  of the building clearly shows the crater is not in front of
the major blast area but 20 to 30 feet to the right.
CONSPIRACY  NATION:   You have also said that the FBI confiscated
security camera tapes that showed  what had happened.  Isn't that
just "standard operating procedure"?  Or will it be 20 or  30  or
40  years before those tapes are released to the public?  What is
your opinion?
TONY SGARLATTI:  The defense team  will most likely subpoena this
film as evidence for trial.  But the question will remain if  the
tapes  were  doctored before being turned over, or if some of the
images will mysteriously be indistinguishable  or erased -- as in
other famous cases such as the Watergate tapes of Richard Nixon.
CONSPIRACY NATION:  Sherman Skolnick says persons on  the  rescue
team  are  suffering  from  radiation poisoning.  Others say it's
cyanide poisoning.  What have you  heard or do you know regarding
TONY  SGARLATTI:  I'm in contact with someone on the Internet who
claims to have degrees in  chemistry and chemical engineering and
owns an environmental consulting firm.  Out of college, he  spent
two years in charge of the technical side of an aerospace plating
plant  where he worked with half a dozen or so 500-gallon vats of
sodium cyanide and potassium cyanide  on  a daily basis.  He also
designed several treatment facilities for removing  cyanide  from
    He  pointed  out  that   cyanide  acts  quickly  and  doesn't
accumulate in the system to cause death or sickness later.  Also,
the cyanide anion is basically harmless unless inhaled as  a  gas
(hydrogen  cyanide)  or  ingested  and  exposed to stomach acids,
which converts it to hydrogen cyanide.
    I've heard that it could have been a small yield nuclear bomb
called a  SADAM.   Such  a  device  would  now  easily  fit  in a
grapefruit and deliver a 5 to 10 ton TNT equivalent --  or  less,
that  is,  down to 1 ton TNT.  These things easily fit into a 105
mm howitzer shell or a brief case.  Karl Granse believes the bomb
was shot from a missile  similar  to  what  was done in the movie
"Clear and Present Danger" (Harrison Ford), that there  was  some
sort  of a laser-guided device on the truck, and the missile then
just cut through  the  truck,  and  into  the reinforced concrete
where it exploded.  (Assuming that a mixture  of  highly  refined
Plutonium  239  was  used,  this  would  have  a  relatively  low
radioactivity emission on detonation.)
CONSPIRACY  NATION:  Have you heard, or can you confirm, that one
of the sniffing dogs at the site of the blast has died?  Any idea
what killed the dog?
TONY  SGARLATTI:   The  first week of February another person I'm
communicating with on  the  Internet  watched the Westminster Dog
Show live on cable.  They had a short documentary segment between
groups focusing in on one of the bomb-sniffing dogs  of  Oklahoma
City.   Since  they  seemed to show an inordinate amount of still
photos of the dog, this person  had  an idea that they were going
to talk about its demise.  They went on and  on  about  how  this
particular  dog  went  "above and beyond its duty" to dig through
the rubble, and  so  on.   They  also  discussed its earlier work
history, and how it had often saved  its  human  partner's  life.
Anyway, sure enough, as the segment was winding up, the announcer
said,  "Unfortunately,  Rover"  (or  whatever the dog's name was)
"died of a mysterious illness  this  past autumn, and now Officer
So-And-So is breaking in a new canine partner to replace Rover."
    No mention or speculation of what  the  "mysterious  illness"
was,  but  I  thought it was interesting it was mentioned at all,
and figured it must be a hot topic amongst the dog show crowd.
    If anyone knows any AKC breeders, showers, or handlers, might
be worthwhile chatting them up  on  this topic, see what "rumors"
they've heard.
    Since apparently cyanide doesn't accumulate in the body,  and
Karl  Granse claims it was radiation, I suspect that the dog died
of radiation poisoning.  That would be easy to prove by examining
the dog's body for signs of radiation.
CONSPIRACY  NATION:   What  about Debra von Trapp's story on what
happened:  can you spot any holes in what she is saying?
TONY SGARLATTI:  As  I  recall,  she  believes  the bombing was a
result of a retaliation of the Japanese for  the  U.S.  allegedly
gassing  their  subway.   I  personally  find this story a little
far-fetched, but at the  same  time  I'm not discounting anything
until the facts dictate otherwise.  Debra  von  Trapp  claims  to
have  recordings  she  made  of  her  conversations  with persons
without their knowledge,  and  other  evidence  to prove what she
claims.  One slant to the  story  could  be  that  these  persons
suspected  her disloyalty and chose to feed her disinformation to
see if it would eventually  come  out from her, thus proving that
she was not to be trusted.  The easiest way to do that  would  be
to  concoct a story so far-fetched that if the information leaked
out, they  would  know  the  one  source  where  this information
CONSPIRACY NATION:  Is the video "Anguish in Oklahoma City" still
available?  How can it be ordered?
TONY SGARLATTI:  Yes the video is still available.  What's unique
about this video is that  it  is only 29-and-a-half minutes long,
so it can be shown  at  meetings  or  schools  and  not  put  the
audience  to  sleep.   It's  packed with live interviews from the
scene,  has   photographs   to   prove   points,  [includes]  the
seismograph from  the  University  of  Oklahoma  and  Kirkpatrick
Center  to  show there were two bomb blasts, and [has] commentary
of Karl Granse, interviewed by Terry Canady.
    I'm  not  selling the video, but instead, giving it away as a
bonus to what I call my "Oklahoma City Bombing Fact Pak."
    The Oklahoma City Bombing Fact  Pak  has  most of the data we
discussed in this interview in print form, including  a  copy  of
the  August  11,  1995 issue of the New American magazine special
report which they  headline  --  Explosive Evidence:  Cover-Up In
Oklahoma City; telltale signs of demolition  charges  inside  the
building.   The  magazine  is  packed with color photographs, Ben
Partin's analysis  of  the  explosion  and  the  analysis  of the
seismograph reading from both the April 19th blast and  May  23rd
implosion.   I'm  also  enclosing  copies  of  several  newspaper
articles,  and  newsletters  devoted to the bombing, plus over 70
pages of material I culled from  the Internet that relates to the
bombing.  It's available for a suggested donation of $19.95 which
includes priority mail shipping, and of course  I  throw  in  the
video free.
Personal  checks  or  money  orders  only.   Send  $19.95 to Tony
Sgarlatti, PO Box  323,  Hopkins,  Minnesota 55343-0323.  Ask for
"OKC Bombing Fact Pak" and free video.  For further  information,
e-mail            tonys@the-truth.org            or           see