HEAVENS GATE, JONESTOWN, AND MASS MEDIA FABLES
An Interview With John Judge
(By Sherman H. Skolnick)
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: What do you think that this was?
JOHN JUDGE: In any intelligence operation, you always go for
multiple bonuses. Obviously, for some reason these people were
to be murdered. Their silence had to be secured, or they wanted
to use the incident as, in order to influence some kind of social
policy. There were two things that were being discussed almost
immediately: one was, censorship of the Internet; the other was,
whether people have the right to die and whether they have a
right to be assisted in the suicide.
This was at the time, early on, when they were saying that
Applewhite was still alive. Now they're saying that Applewhite
is among the dead. But they had the I.D.s right from the
beginning and it made me wonder whether Applewhite *is*, in fact,
among the dead.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In other words, Internet and euthanasia were
some of the subjects put and debated by the established media.
JOHN JUDGE: And the spokesperson when CNN ran these issues right
from the beginning of the reporting was a person by the name of
Gerald Post(sp?). And he had been on Crossfire five days before
the [Heavens Gate] incident, arguing the "necessity," that
"Internet was full of conspiracy theorists spreading hate and it
had to be censored." His credentials that they gave were, he was
a professor at George Washington University, and among the topics
that he taught was a class in political psychology --
psychological operations. And this guy, Gerald Post, was much
more visibly and correctly identified during the Gulf War, when
he commented on CNN and other media as an *open* agent of the
Central Intelligence Agency, whose specialty was domestic
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And he had a connection with Heavens Gate?
JOHN JUDGE: Only in the sense that, on the first day, he was the
first official spokesperson.
And you have to take a close look at all the people that are
commenting. Also, the story about the one person who quit the
cult: "Rio" is the only name given so far that I've seen.
They're hiding his identity. But he's alleged to have quit the
cult 5 weeks before this happened. And then he turns up also as
the person who discovers the bodies and reports it to the police.
And this is classic for a provocateur. In other words, if it was
an intelligence operation, he is the most suspect and they won't
identify him. But he worked with this guy -- Nick Matzurkis I
believe the name is? He runs some sort of a computer gaming
industry. And Matzurkis also subcontracted Heavens Gate to his
client, so he's involved with their business affairs. [CN:
Matzurkis(sp?) received 2 computer disks in the mail from Heavens
Gate around the time of the supposed mass suicide. The disks
were *not* material from their supposed web site. Matzurkis has
placed the disks in a bank safe deposit box and last I heard had
not revealed any of the contents.]
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: In other words, some of the first people that
showed up in the media were known commentators on CIA domestic
JOHN JUDGE: Yes, there was an expert who worked for the CIA, an
expert on domestic psychological operations. And the
spokespeople are always important in these situations. At
Jonestown, the first two national spokespeople that said it
wasn't unusual that all these people killed themselves were Dr.
Joly West, UCLA Neuropsychiatric Institute (part of MK-ULTRA),
and also Dr. Robert J. Liston, who along with Dr. West wrote the
original books about the Korean brainwashing, as a lie to cover
up chemical and biological weapons used in Korea and also to
establish the need of the United States to do mind control.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: So Heavens Gate may be another CIA/MK-ULTRA
operation, like Jonestown.
JOHN JUDGE: I believe so. I think that there's enough
discrepancies in the facts. The story that this Nick Matzurkis
has, that Rio spoke to him and said he thought they might be
killing themselves: he said he got the message on Tuesday and
alerted Matzurkis, but they didn't go down to see what's
happening until Wednesday.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Are you going to write up something?
JOHN JUDGE: I am working with some other people to potentially
write something about this.
I believe that they were murdered. I don't believe that any
group of people... Even if you could convince yourself in a rush
situation, somehow, to kill yourself when there's no imminent
external threat, I don't think you would keep convincing yourself
over 6 or 7 days.
It's quite likely that there were more people in the compound
that left after the murders were done as well.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: The one who's played up these type of UFO with
Hale-Bopp stories is Art Bell, who is a cousin of Warren Buffet.
Warren Buffet is some type of dope/espionage person in my
opinion, whose fortune is very questionable -- sort of like
JOHN JUDGE: I know that the story of the UFO following the
comet, which has become part of this legend (as to what these
people were doing and why they killed themselves at this time,
supposedly), came from an amateur astronomer who called the Art
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Art Bell is spread out all over, onto major
radio stations that would not find your comments or mine
acceptable to go on the air. And all of a sudden, Art Bell and
his "UFOs in your backyard" stories are being promoted all over
JOHN JUDGE: I've had no media calls although I did the original
work with Mae Brussell on Jonestown. I've had many calls,
though, from individuals around the country, asking what I
thought about the Heavens Gate situation because of the work that
I have done.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Is it also possible that because of the
Clinton White House scandals escalating, that this is to make a
JOHN JUDGE: There are certainly other much more important things
going on, including the move by Dexter King and the King family
to approach James Earl Ray, to try to re-open Ray's trial. And
that was dismissed this morning on NPR by Daniel Schorr, saying
that "the Kings were just feeding into a new movie by Oliver
Stone." Stone *does* want to make a movie of the book, *Orders
To Kill* by William Pepper, who was a civil rights activist with
Dr. King. An excellent book.
When you take the level of integrity and courage it took for
the King family to come forward and call openly for a trial for
James Earl Ray, and all you can do is smear them and dismiss, I
think it borders on being racist on their [NPR's] part.
We have a national campaign going on right now to petition the
appeals court to act quickly: to test the rifle, to re-open the
trial. We're going to have William Pepper and perhaps Dexter
King at our conference here in June. And we also have a national
campaign to free the 650 to 700 thousand pages of
The last time that there was a public statement by Coretta
Scott King was in the 1970s, that she believed that there was a
conspiracy in the case. And the reason it came out was that
James Earl Ray's attorneys had won a remand of the case. And the
press had asked the Kings what they thought. And within a
two-week period, in which King's widow made that first and only
statement blaming a conspiracy, two of the main family members
were killed. First the brother, A.D. King, was found fully
clothed behind the house, in a swimming pool, drowned. A man
that didn't swim and didn't like to go in the water.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: And then King's mother was murdered.
JOHN JUDGE: That's right, and then the mother was murdered in
Ebeneezer Baptist by Martin Wayne Chenault(?). And they were
both witnesses to the physical wounds on Dr. King.
The person who did it, Chenault, was linked to a guy that
called himself Abraham Israel -- he had different names he used.
His real name was David Hill. He was from Cleveland, but tied to
Field Marshall Cinque of the Symbionese Liberation Army.
Chenault joined a group called "The Troop or the Truth." And
they had a list of civil rights leaders they were going to kill.
And they were programmed killers. He came out of there grinning
like Arthur Bremer [convicted of attempted assassination of
George Wallace], and he asked, "Did I hit anybody?" And he had a
gun in his hand. They did no ballistic or autopsy work on Dr.
King's mother, to find out if there had been a second assassin,
whether Chenault was just a patsy in there popping the gun off to
take the blame. He was put into prison, but David Hill then
disappeared from Cleveland and founded something called
"Hilltown," which was about 20 miles from Jonestown, in the bush
in Guyana. And he claimed to have 8,000 American Indians and
blacks there, and he worked to ensure elections for Forbes
Burnham, the CIA plant that took over the country.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: Your coalition, the Coalition On Political
Assassinations, holds conventions or conferences from time to
JOHN JUDGE: We do an annual conference, and we also do a
regional conference every year in Dallas around the anniversary
of the JFK assassination, November 22nd.
SHERMAN SKOLNICK: You do everything possible to keep this before
JOHN JUDGE: Yes, we do, although there is very definitely a
press blockade of this material. Almost despite anything we do,
we can't get coverage. Even an hour on C-Span would get us
We have a web site, http://www.nicom.com/~copa
Our e-mail address is, firstname.lastname@example.org
One of my tapes is distributed by Prevailing Winds Research.
It's called "Cults, Lies, and Videotape." (Phone: 805-899-3433;
Fax: 805-899-4773; BBS: 805-899-4737.) I did it two summers
ago. The tape has a lot of my analysis on different cults. Many
of these cults were created whole cloth and were infiltrated and
are run by the government. The idea of infiltrating the occult
societies as control systems goes back at least to World War II,
when the Office of Naval Intelligence hired Jack Parsons and
Alestair Crowley, [self-proclaimed "Beast" of Revelations].
Crowley sent his disciples into all the various cults, to
infiltrate them and find out how they worked.