JAMES NORMAN || WBAI RADIO || MAY 14, 1996
James Norman was featured on a "Hidden Agenda" broadcast, hosted
by Gary Null, on WBAI Radio in New York City on May 14, 1996.
The following is an abbreviated transcript of that interview:
Hi. I'm Gary Null and I'd like to welcome you to our program:
today, continuing our series on "Hidden Agendas". This series is
meant to explore some of the areas where we have been told an
official version of events, and our own, in-depth investigation
or those of the guests that I have on, shows that the official
version should be challenged.
You are going to hear information today that you simply will not
believe. However: after an enormous amount of effort to
corroborate the evidence of James Norman, my guest, I can say
that much of what he is about to say, at least *I'm* convinced,
[Null next summarizes info from the previous, May 13th broadcast.
See Conspiracy Nation, Vol. 7 Num. 98 for background.]
It almost makes your brain hurt to think about what's been going
on here. But the essence of it is exactly as you say: we've
been spying on foreign banks.
What happened was, when they were looking into these accounts,
looking for terrorists supposedly, they also came across some
major U.S. legislators: Senators, House members, who had
*enormous* amounts of money. The question is: How did they get
all this money in these bank accounts? Why this particular
[Swiss] bank? And that gives us an idea why many of these
individuals, as you'll hear in a few moments, have suddenly begun
to retire in unprecedented numbers -- so they can "spend more
time with their families". There's some big names involved: I
mean *major* names.
Once these fellows [rogue CIA hackers] were able to get into
these foreign banks and identify accounts belonging to government
officials, satisfy themselves that it was dirty money, they, by
obtaining the authorization codes off of these accounts (and
given that they were numbered accounts and that there were no
signatures required for withdrawal), they have been able to
effect technically legitimate wire transfers of this money. And
according to my sources, the money has been pulled back to some
kind of holding account at the U.S. Treasury, escrowed for use by
CIA or the intelligence community if and only if the CIA gets rid
of a bunch of its own bad apples.
Vince Foster's account, which we mentioned on the earlier show...
He was found to have $2.73 million in a Swiss account. That
money was apparently taken out by this "Fifth Column" [rogue CIA
hackers] group right at the time that Foster was scheduled to
make one of these periodic, curious, one-day trips to Geneva that
he was making.
Now the Sunday London Telegraph has reported about these curious
trips. Based on the findings of a private investigator in
Arkansas, whose credentials have been spoken of extremely highly,
this guy was able to find private American Express records of
Vince Foster that showed he had been making these periodic,
one-day trips to Geneva every six or eight months. And on July
1, 1993, he bought round-trip travel to Geneva and back -- but he
cancelled that trip! He didn't make the trip. I'm told it's
because he learned, in the process of making that trip, that the
money had been taken out of his account. He cancelled the trip.
And subsequently, he bought $2400 worth of travel to *somewhere*.
We don't know where. He never lived to make that trip.
His wife denies knowing anything about any of this.
This apparently is when he found out he was under some kind of
surveillance. *That* began this curious chain of events in the
final weeks of his life, including a meeting on the eastern shore
of Maryland with Webster Hubbell and other people from the
Clinton administration that, in retrospect, clearly seemed
designed to convince Vince Foster to shut up, "cop a plea", don't
implicate anybody else. Because there were other people in the
White House who were directly threatened by this investigation.
Including Hillary Clinton.
Hillary Clinton, at the Rose Law Firm, was an attorney-of-record
for this company, Systematics: a bank data processing company, a
front company for the National Security Agency, heavily involved
in banking intelligence. And, as well, this company was, in
effect, a "money laundromat" for covert funds that the
intelligence community was moving around. It was sort of a
well-known thing within the intelligence community that
Systematics was, in effect, a "cyber-bank" for the intelligence
Hillary was the attorney-of-record for the "bank" in 1978 when
Jackson Stephens, the Arkansas billionaire who *owned* the
company 100 percent at that time, fronting for Arab interests,
tried to take over, on behalf of what were BCCI [Bank of Credit
and Commerce International] people, tried to take over this
Washington bank holding company -- then-called Financial General
Bankshares, now called First American. (That's the bank that
ultimately did come under BCCI control, with Clark Clifford and
One of the stipulations Stephens had when he tried to make that
acquisition was to bring in Systematics to do all the bank data
processing for the multi-state holding company. The SEC
[Securities and Exchange Commission] blocked that initial
acquisition. Ultimately, we're told, Systematics *did* get
involved with that bank after BCCI eventually was allowed to take
control of it later on.
Hillary, we're told by Foster in an interview in the American
Lawyer magazine in 1992, developed an entire practice at the Rose
Law Firm in intellectual property law -- mainly from immersing
herself in the affairs of this company, Systematics. Clearly,
she had more than a passing acquaintance with this stuff. When
you talk about intellectual property law, we're talking about
software licensing and extremely sensitive stuff like that.
That raises a question: Could Hillary have been involved somehow
in this espionage situation that Foster was being investigated
for? Now I have no conclusive proof that Foster was guilty of
espionage. All we know is that he was under investigation. He
was under surveillance. What we *do* know is that his executive
assistant, Deborah Gorham, testified under oath, in an interview
by Senate investigators, that Foster had given her, shortly
before his death, two, inch-thick ring binders of materials from
the National Security Agency, which he had her put in Bernie
Nussbaum's safe in the White House. Clearly, these were
sensitive documents. And according to one Brookings Institution
expert I talked to, and corroborated, one of these binders was
*indeed* sensitive stuff and probably involved the codes and
protocols by which the President would authenticate himself to
the Pentagon in ordering military action. These are the kind of
materials that Foster would have had no reason to have in the
routine course of his duties as a Deputy White House Counsel. He
did not have a high enough security clearance for them. He would
not have had access to them. It would have required somebody
that had access to the Oval Office or the Presidential living
quarters to apparently even provide these things. *What* *was*
*he* *doing* *with* *these*?? It's a question that has begged
for an answer, or even to be asked in public in the official
So that has helped to put, over the whole Vince Foster case, a
shadow of National Security Interests which helps explain the
rather bizarre cover-up behavior of people in the government, and
in the news media in particular, in failing to pursue the real
nature of that case.
What is becoming clear to me is that the political scandal here
is so immense that the government just cannot come to grips with
Have I seen any of the hard documents on these Swiss bank
accounts? No, I haven't. And it's extremely frustrating to me.
I keep talking to these sources. I say, "At some point you've
got to let this out." In fact, what I've been told is that they
*have* been turning over this information to Kenneth Starr,
probably under some kind of a grant of immunity.
There's a whole bunch of sensitivities here, questions: Could
this stuff be used? Admissable as evidence? That's why there's
been this basically extra-legal approach to the whole thing: get
these people [e.g. crooked congressmen, etc.] out of office
first, then eventually -- perhaps with a stronger Justice
Department, willing to go after them -- they'll eventually be
It's a heck of a way to do business. But, again... [laughs] I
couldn't have made up this story if I tried!
Do you think Hillary Clinton will be indicted?
Certainly if you "read the tea leaves" of what's been going on
with the Starr, Senate, and House investigations, certainly it
looks like indictments are rapidly approaching for the First
Lady. Probably the first round would be on relatively minor
obstruction of justice or banking-related infractions.
The scenario I have been told by people who are involved in the
investigations is that there will be an initial round of these
kind of charges. Probably there would be pardons available. But
maybe next year sometime, there could be a second round of
indictments that would involve much more sensitive crimes, crimes
against the state, potentially, for which there *may* be no
So the stakes here are extremely high. And we could end up with
a situation much like Mexico right now, where their
former-President Salinas is essentially a world wanderer, a man
without a country right now, himself having been accused of
being involved in maybe half-a-billion dollars worth of slush
funds, stashed in CitiBank accounts in Switzerland.
There's a lot of good people in the government. And in many
agencies, I think there's an attempt now to try and finally get
justice. I think that for years and years, good people have had
to basically put the kibosh on investigations that would have got
too close to high political figures. Now I think a lot of this
information is coming out. And I think there is a serious effort
to clean up the corruption in our government, which unfortunately
has become of a giant magnitude: from kickbacks, payola on
illicit drug and arms transactions, and who knows what. And
unfortunately, the money involved now is so much more than it
ever has been in the past. There has always been corruption;
there will always be corruption. But the dollars involved now
have become *so* significant that they've tainted almost
everybody, it looks like, at high levels. And it's made it
impossible to clean up the system.
So that's why this "Fifth Column" group has resorted to this
extra-legal approach. And I don't endorse it necessarily. But I
have to say, "Hats off" to 'em. It looks like it's being
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If you would like to know more about this explosive story, CN
recommends the Orlin Grabbe material, currently archived at
ftp.shout.net in subdirectory pub/users/bigred/og -- or use the
http address, http://www.europa.com/~johnlf/cn.html to read it.